When questioned yesterday, MP for Cairns Desley Boyle she was happy for her signs to be used.
Desley told Channel 7 journalist Scott Forbes she was happy for Bryan Law to use her signs.
"I'm happy either way," Bryan Law says. "I have arguments to run in court based on the Electoral Act and citizens rights, if she wants to take me there."
However it's doubted that the ALP will want to draw anymore attention to the Yacht Club issue, which was always expected to be an election sore thumb.
"I won't quibble about legal/illegal," Law says. "Except to say that Desley has decided not to make a complaint or press charges. I assume because a day in Court will increase the pressure on her to be accountable."
Wendy Richardson, standing for the newly-formed LNP, and lead the community campaign last year, didn't want to comment on the sign defacing. "I know people are still very upset with the Labor Party and local MPs about not saving the old building for the community," she told CairnsBlog yesterday.
Richardson visited the remains of the Yacht Club building at James Cook University recently and was disgusted at what she saw.
"This is very sad, we didn't get what we were promised," she said.
LNP's Cairns candidate, running against sitting MP Desley Boyle, knows of the anger in the community.
"It could have and should have been saved," Joel Harrop says. "The whole waterfront area is something that the public should have a say in. They have been denied this."
However everyone isn't happy from the Save the Yacht Club camp, about the defacing of Boyle's signs.
"The damage to Desely Boyle's signs is disgusting, it is also unlawful," says Janine Aitken, an ALP member who was active in the Yacht Club campaign.
"The same point could have been made by erecting signs next to hers," Aitken said, who ran for Cairns Regional Council last year.
She also questioned why Wendy Richardson has made no comment on the sign vandalism, having been in the media about her own election signs last week. "Why so silent when its someone else's?" Aitken questioned Richardson.
"Having run for election myself I know how expensive those signs are. I feel that by wilfully damaging signs by way of graffiti/tagging whatever you want to call it, makes everyone involved in what was a damn good fight, lose all credibility." Janine said. "Now we all look like a bunch of crims and I for one am very pissed off my name is even vaguely associated with this."
However Bryan Law said it is to be expected.
"I've supported Desley Boyle's election as the MLA for Cairns over the past 10 years, mostly because she was better than Keith DeLacy, the developers' mate (and Wayne Goss's Treasurer)," he says. "At one point Desley had a social justice agenda and was connected to the grass-roots in Cairns. Alas."
Bryan Law says when he went to see Desley about the Yacht Club last year to broker a deal with the community, that history of support got him precisely nothing.
"It was an empty promise to consult with Cairns Ports, and not even a decent reason why we couldn't preserve and adapt the building," Law says.
He said Desley Boyle was all huffy. "I won't be blackmailed by electoral threats. I'm here to govern" she said at the time. It seems she's changed her tune now that her safe seat is
under threat.
"I'd like you to notice that I add two words to Desley's signs, without obscuring or damaging any part of the message she wants to send," Law says. "The problem is that the only content in Desley's signs seems to be 'I can afford a good hairdresser'. There's room for 'Yacht Club', and if Desley really believed in what she was doing, she'd welcome the opportunity for publicity."
"As I understand it, having refused to attend public meetings and explain her position, Desley got 500 election corflutes to pursue a disembodied election result. I see that as 500 opportunities to remind people of her recent attitude and record of public service," Law said.
"I've done everything openly and publicly, and received many more expressions of support than condemnation. Most working-class people in this town appreciate someone having a go."
Desley is responsible for her own actions. She wouldn't explain herself last year. She's getting a chance to do that now.
37 comments:
Wendy is running for the LNP. I am a unionist who at the time of the Yacht Club fight did not belong to any political party,
i have since joined the ALP, as in words once uttered by Bryan Law "it is sometimes easier to work within".
Why would any of us take any notice the views of either Bryan Law, happy to have his name associated with this article by Michael Moore [rude comment deleted].
I was proudly associated with the Save the Yatch Club action but feel now it is a dead issue, we lost, move on and prepare for the next battle.
Should Bryan Law also move on and perhaps address the alignment of the LNP with Uranium mining an issue much closer to his heart and past actions.
Destructive grand standing is just that Bryan and impresses few.
Dear Janine,
• As far as I know, you have never been implicated in any political graffiti.
• You may also know that the LNP moved an amendemnt to the Criminal Act making graffitit offenders automatically liable to 3 months community service removing graffiti as well as the fines they attracted. This was VOTED DOWN BY YOUR BELOVED LABOR PARTY, along with other Legislation like, making it an offence to Bash, Police, Ambulance Officers and Nurses.
• Bryan has made it crystal clear that he has acted alone on the matter of the Yacht Club Tiaras.
• I personally think it was a master stroke of civil disobedience, and re-inforced the cowardly and destructive actions of Desley, Anna and Stephen, in destroying 100 years of our Heritage.
• Bryan has indicated he is readyto take his punnishment. But I doubt if the Labor trio will want to stir up the mud at this stage because people will be moved to anger again.
• Oh that Emily Pankhurst did not chain herself to Buckinham Palance and end up in jail otherwise you would not have been voting or indeed even had a
chance to be elected to Parliament.
• As for Wendy Richardson, she is totally innocent of all this and it is to her credit that she has remained aloof from it.
• While we are on the matter of signs. What's the go with Desley and Stephen showing two people? Should we be saying, "Will the real Desley and Stephen stand up?"
• Rob Williams
• McCoombe Street
• Earlville
I don’t have a problem with asking the hard questions, it's the matter in which way you ask them.
I don't care how Desley feels about what your doing to her signs, for me this really has little to do with her, its that it is damage to property and that after Wendy making such a who-har out of her signs been damaged, here just about all of Desley's have been done, openly from a member of a group which she was an organiser for and she doesn’t even whisper to the list... Who is this woman?, and really after all the direct action she didn’t come down and stand on the sidelines once. I saw Stu Traill (President QCU Cairns) & Kevin O'sullivan (Organiser QPSU) their on a few occasions "ready to chain themselves to a bulldozer" (in Wendy's words) I doubt that's why they were there, but at least the unionist were there in case that’s what was needed. Where was she then? Where is she now?
Am I still angry about the Yacht Club the answer is yes, do I think there is a better way to get your message across, YES!
After the LNP's policy or cutting thousands of "de-necessary" jobs from the public sector. Not to mention the gem on uranium mining, your out of your mind if you think there is an alternative.
Janine,
If Uranium mining is such a travesty, then why have Anna Bligh and Labor continued issuing exploration permits for it?
At least Springborg is man enough to stand up and tell the public what he believes in.
As for the 'de-necessary,' it is actually a proposed efficiency dividend of 3% across the board.
Kevin Rudd applied the same technique to the Federal Government when he was elected... actually, his was 3.25%.
Are you being duped by your own ALP/Union scare campaign? Or are you blatantly and knowingly lying to the public?
The unions are just worried their money laundering scam is going to be stopped.
I do hope that aside from your scare campaign, you're mentioning the fact that in the past year, the ALP Government has issued $2.7 million in "grants" to the union movement, and had the same union movement donate $2.8 million back to the ALP.
Laundering our tax dollars - that's shameless.
The people who are concerned that LNP is supporting mining Uranium, should ask themselves why the Labor Party and Premier Bligh are allowing mining exploration rights for Uranium, and have done so for a long time.
Some nice creative accountancy, and conspiracy theories from Tyson. Always good to get the word "shame" somewhere in there too.
My union can spend my fees however they like. They have done a great job of protecting wages and conditions in the face of the worst anti-worker legislation this country has seen.
Oh I agree!
They can most certainly use your fees how they see fit.
But, when they start laundering tax dollars, well, we have a tiny problem.
Health in crisis, education in crisis, but hell! Let's give the unions more money...
Carole: I am interested in the connection between Bryan Law and Wendy Richardson. I think Wendy is being a little precious about making no comment. I received a campaign flyer from Wendy yesterday which stated under 'Safety and Security': "Reclaiming our community will see graffiti vandals forced to clean up etc etc"
At the first hurdle, when called upon to make a strong statement about vandals/graffiti, Wendy is speechless. So! Did she mean to stand by any of the other promises on her campaign flyer? All sounds a bit core/non-core to me!
Now Tyson I'm intrigued. I'm a member of a union and I pay tax. I am very interested to hear more of this money laundering scam. Could you please provide me with your information sources as I am sure fellow members of my union and indeed the general public would be very interested in the evidence you have found.
Dear Michael, please would you indicate what the "rude comment" was in my original. Methinks you are being a little precious regarding critism, it is not a one way perogative.
Wendy Davie
(Un)fortunately Wendy, this is my Blog. I therefore can set and uphold the rules.
I ask all contributors not to make personal attacks, and your comment was petty and hardly in keeping with the spirit of mature debate. Your snipe was hardly respectful of he forum I work very hard to provide.
I expected more from someone like yourself, whom was a valuable and proud defender of democracy at the height of the Yacht Club campaign and debate.
However, that debate was and is not over, although you think some should "move on and get over it".
You may disagree with Bryan's actions or my support of same, however you seem to now be acting in total defianace of your strongly-held and public views just 5 short months ago, and now appear as a Labor lapdog. That's a shame, but you total right.
A modern democracy allows every citizen to hold elected officials to account at voting time for their actions or inactions. That is all Bryan Law - and myself - is doing.
I really thought you would be doing the same, even via the power of the pen.
Wendy went running for the hills the moment direct action was taken.
I was quoted in the media by Wendy that both she and myself would stand side by side chaining ourselves to a bulldozer to prevent the removal of the yacht club.
On the days of the removal of the Yacht Club I was present to voice my disappointment and to see if Wendy actually had the conviction to follow through but unfotunately my ability to take action was restricted because if I am arested I can lose my "Right of Entry" authoristaion to act as a Union official.
This is due to the Liberal party policy which the National party supported Workchices legislation.
I am sick and tired of seeing political candidates frm all sides making all the noise and promises in the world but when push comes to shove not delivering.
Wendy Richardson, you went missing, face the facts.
Bryan, you are a bitter man, and you publicly supporting a party that has sent troops to their deaths, a party that refuses to rule out slashing hundreds of local jobs from vital public services is a disgrace.
I have to ask myself, what do you truly stand for.
Hurrah...it's warming up at last.
I thought this election was going to be as cold and dull as John McKenzie's bed life.
correct me if i am wrong, but are all the election signs we are talking about the personal property of the individuals standing for election: i.e. they were paid for personally by our politicians, and not funded by the taxpayer? if that is the case, then all of those who think it is fine to vandalise them will surely not mind if i vandalise their personal property to make my point? as they do not put up election signs, i am thinking of cars, houses, gardens, and so on.
Dear Rob,
* You are somewhat correct re implication on political graffiti, that is if you discount the 20 questions i received from a security guard regarding the "memorials to Anna & Desley" emblazoned across concrete footings at JCU where what was the Yacht Club now stands. Being the number 1 trouble maker at my university and my stance on the Yacht Club issue I can understand how they may have come to the conclusion that I may know something about it. For the record I was not responsible nor was I anywhere near campus when that happened.
* I was not aware of the voting down of legislation and will do some research, I wouldn't go so far as to say my "beloved Labor Party" I just prefer it a hell of alot more to the LNP which should come as no surprise to anybody.
* While Bryan has taken steps to make it known he has acted independently re the "Tiaras" it does reflect on the whole campaign and those involved whether you want it to or not. The fact is it does fall within willful damage of property.
* I still believe the same point could have been made by erecting signs right next to Desely's and believe this form of action would have reflected better on the group.
* Bryan always looks forward to his day in court and perhaps when this is all over Bryan and I will catch up for a coffee and discuss his possible defence that he speaks of I am interested as to hear what it could be.
* While Emily Pankhurst is to be admired, she did not secure the right to vote for me, being born in New Zealand Kate Sheppard earned me the right to vote in 1893, and since my family moved here when I was 6, the right to vote & sit in Commonwealth elections for "White" Australian Women was granted in 1902. Queensland Women got the right to vote in 1905 and the right to sit for Parliament in 1918. Emily Pankhurst only broke away from the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies and formed the Women's Social and Political Union in 1903 and from there on is the political activism she took part in to which you are referring. In 1918 the United Kingdom gave the right to vote to Women who were over the age of 30, it was not until 1928 women in the UK were granted the right to vote on the same terms as men and this was thanks somewhat due to the efforts of Emily Pankhurst and so many women like her.
* Wendy placed a call to me today explaining her reasons for not speaking out, I expressed my opinions to her & I still stand by that in my view a quick note to the list would have spoken volumes, however we had a productive conversation, we share some similar views on some issues and will meet up for a coffee after the election regardless of the outcome.
* Regarding the two signs, why not recycle old signs? I think its smart for the pocket and the environment, it obviously isn't an option for Wendy due to the LNP merge and the change of seat, however I have no issue with anyone reusing signs. On a side note as a Jazz man I wouldn't have picked you as an Eminem fan.
Oh dear Stuey does anything you have said not provide support for your growing reputation as tribal neanderthal? "Bring out the jobless" "bring out the jobless" as Monty Python may have shouted in a different context?
Oh dear Jainine club do ytou seriously now expect credibility?
Some of us are capable of telling when we are being told damned lies?
Hurrah for anonymity, censorship and pseudonyms.
Wendy Davie
Wendy, It is Mikes Blog and he can do what he likes with it. I for one am very grateful that it exists. I don't share Bryan's anti American view, but I share his passion with regards to the Yacht Club. I don't share Janine's politicl beliefs, but Janine is still welcome in my house. It is thanks to this Blog that we can get to share our views and agree to disagree.
People sure do have strong feelings come election time! Even I get worried from time to time about strained relations, and not just with members of the Labor tribe. Discussions with some of the Greens tribe about preferences, and the Liberal National tribe about private property, and the vigilante tribe about one nation – are all fraught with passion and persuasion. It’s probably a good thing that hand-gun ownership is restricted in Cairns, or not even a new hospital would save me.
Janine and Wendy, I hope we get space for a good coffee and natter in about three weeks’ time if Bligh stays Premier, and about two months’s time if she loses. Stuart, you’re wrong about me being bitter. Look again at the photos Mike took of me doing my art-work on Desley’s sign. I submit the smile is a sure sign of a (toe-curlingly, insufferably) happy man. I love elections. I enjoy participating.
In its election blog yesterday the Cairns Post called me a “veteran activist”, which is the most respectful label they’ve put on me for some time. As a grass-roots nonviolence activist I like to think I use careful and effective cultural symbols to maximise the impact I have towards establishing and furthering the social values I believe in (peace, love, justice, sustainability). So far in this election campaign I’ve spent $50 in cash, and maybe 15 hours in activity – and I think even Bryan Outlaw would concede I’m enjoying a certain amount of success in bringing the Yacht Club, and principles of democratic accountability, into the election.
Mike’s blog is a big help because it’s genuine independent media. When I conceived the “Golden Tiara” campaign I knew that Mike would reliably publicise it, and bring it to a select and engaged audience capable of understanding it and furthering its impact. Everyone reading Mike’s blog is in a position to further our democratic culture, and I encourage you all to go for it.
The use of Desley’s signs exemplifies the nature of nonviolent action as “political Jiu Jitsu” – where the poor and relatively powerless turn the resources and energy of the oppressor class against them by deploying human ingenuity. Desley miscalculated, and thought that swamping a short election campaign with thousands of dollars worth of slickly produced glossy images would turn the trick. It took $50 to turn that around, and place her in a difficult situation.
My wife Margaret thinks the golden tiaras are actually pretty attractive, and that Desley’s posters continue to look good. They still carry all the information Desley wants to put out – and my message about accountability as well. I get heaps of positive feedback about the golden tiaras. Lots of people notice. Channel 7 came to me looking for the story after they saw the signs. I did an interview with the Cairns Post and a photo op today, likewise at their request. It’s a terrific story.
One of the reasons it’s a terrific story is because I’ve been completely open about it. I only do it during daylight hours, and I wave at the many people who toot at me in either encouragement or abuse. I’m proud of what I’m doing. No skulking around for this boy.
Contrast that to a politician who wants your vote, but isn’t prepared to answer questions, attend community meetings, or treat voters with respect.
Desley could, if she wished, lodge a complaint with Police – which would probably result in charges being laid against me for wilful damage. I suspect she doesn’t want to do that because it will lead to much more adverse publicity for her as I argue the case for citizens’ political rights in Court. Read the end part of Justice Dowsett’s judgement in Hudson v Entsch at http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/FCA/2005/460.html?query=^Dowsett%20%20%20Entsch
Likewise she could have at me in the civil Courts by seeking an injunction, and that would have the same drawbacks. So she’s decided instead that she’s perfectly happy to have me continue my program of awarding her the golden tiara. If you believe she’s happy about that, then you’re well qualified to vote for her.
As for me, I’m putting in a concerted effort to unseat Desley Boyle – because I believe she deserves it. To my direct knowledge Desley, in 2008, displayed unacceptable contempt and disregard for her constituents and forgot her purpose in seeking Parliamentary office – which is to serve the people.
If I let her get away with that, how exactly would I restore right relationship between MLA and voter? How would I encourage Desley to drop her managerialism and take back up her social justice agenda?
How are you going to do it Janine, Wendy, Stuart? You belong to a great Party, with a wonderful tradition and a huge potential to do good. What’s your plan for getting it back on the rails?
Mine is to give them a spell in opposition (or at least to have a bloody good go at giving them a spell in opposition). I don’t expect to be well loved by Labor for doing this – but I do expect that when I talk to any politician in the future I will be taken at my word, because I mean what I say, and I’m willing to follow through on it. I was taught that this is the essence of democracy.
Like I say, it’s a good thing that hand-guns are well controlled in this country.
Bryan,
Why three weeks if Labor wins and two months if they lose for the Coffee date? Is that to fit in time to lick Wounds or celebrations and for who? Given that I had no problem showing my face after personally losing an election I'm fine to met up the next day. But if its time you need Bryan that’s fine.
I hope you have another case to rely on then Hudson v Entch as that was more about the incitement to knock down signs. Also in that case there was no wilful damage to personal property.
Yes I belong to the ALP but at least everyone here knows my background. Is it because you can’t affiliate to the party of your choice that you feel the need to personally attack? Do you remember your words of encouragement when we were discussing joining a political party? “join and work it from the inside”, has that belief changed too? Or did I just pick the wrong party and therefore your statement doesn’t stand?
For the rest of the list, I don't care how you vote, we all know I'm going to vote Labor, Just like we all know Tyson is going to vote LNP and Bryan well at the moment maybe he vote for the man in the moon as his beliefs on what use to be core issues for him seem to have shifted a little of late... but BIG whoop! who cares?
My issue here, is and always has been about the wilful damage of property. I will say it again, the same point could have been made by placing signs NEXT to desely's just like in the case of Hudson v Entsch.
Arthur you are right the signs are payed for by the individuals not tax payer funded.
Mike in your last post it would appear that you issued a slight attack against Wendy Davies so you know what they say, what’s good for the goose and all that...
Kitchen Slut, Im still deciphering your post... but since I have a real name, well surely that earns me some credibility.
Tyson last time we met you ranted for 2 hours on god knows what, im still trying to forget that memorable occasion, while I support your right to freedom of speech I chose not to engage with you as a person.
I don't believe we have actually met, Janine...
Have we?
Bryan Law attacks Americans at every opportunity. Sadly, it will be guys like him first to be gaoled when the KRudd government begins to realise that Australia DOESN'T have a right to free speech, nor any of the other rights guaranteed by the American constitution and bill of rights.
What an outrageous lie! I had an opportunity to attack Americans at the airport the other day - and I didn't do it. I just asked them for spare change.
Tyson,
We are still waiting for your evidence....
Dear Kitchenslut,
I hear you have a really good recipe for toast. Why don't you post that one?
"Over the last three years Queensland taxpayers provided $2.7 million in
grants to the union movement and, miraculously, last year the union
movement donated $2.8 million back to the Queensland Labor Party in what
looks suspiciously like a money laundering exercise," he said.
"If the union movement has that much money to give away in donations to
the Labor Party, then it simply does not need taxpayer funded grants
that would be better directed to helping improve the workplaces and work
conditions of public sector employees,"
The $2.7 million in taxpayer funded grants to
union movement over the last three years has been identified as
government waste by the LNP.
Anecdotal evidence, but evidence nonetheless - scour the budget papers and prove me wrong :)
Janine,
Lighten up.
Anecdote! What is this? a page a day diary...
Ray,
Stop playing on the computer now, it's time for your lunch.
"Murmers from the Levon Helm Suite said...
QTU member my arse!"
I'd rather not if you don't mind Mr/Ms Murmers - what you do in private is your own business.
...I suppose you could thank a teacher for helping you develop the skills to spell 'arse' properly.
Tyson if you want to see true money laundering on a grand scale check out the audit of your federal mates when they were in government:
http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/documents/2008-09_Audit_Report_24.pdf
Well worth the read.
Oh my god - that's a lot of defending and accusing and feeling bad. Peace be with you all...!!!
I like the signs - I reckon they are cute. Desley's main message is she is standing in the electorate Cairns - and that message is not disrupted. She has made the message loud and clear. There are a LOT of signs.
Political 'spaces' that are cheap and accessible are hard to come by. [500 side by side signs would be a huge investment ($5000) and there would be almost no chance of them staying up for long - bryan lost 2/3 of $600 worth of signs vitually overnight - the Labor party is efficient with some things.]
A sign is a political space. There is a long and
honorable tradition of the creative 'altering' [note reframing] of advertising and political signs. Check the Adbusters website. There was a famous case in Sydney where four[?] women were acquitted by Pat OShane for creativly reworking sexist advertising. Bugger Up was a group that was well known for its art work in the 80s.
Political murals and grafiti [also on personal property] also have an honourable tradition.
When nonviolent actions are put into a historical and theoretical framework it is easier, outside the heat of allegiences, to understand the attempts of ordinary people to involve themselves in politics .
The enaction of 'holding accountable' those involved in injustice, exclusion, poor planning, etc is a complex and difficult task.
We live here on the edge of Empire, far from Brisbane, Sydney, London, New York. Cairns has a long history of remoteness and it has been difficult to hold 'the powers that be' accountable. From where I stand, the party system doesn't really do it. Neither does the ordinary means of the electoral process.
Our elected members are not even particularly responsive [show response-ability] to those that do the hard yards, the work for them - much less to us ordinary folk.
I applaud creative attempts - however imperfect - at holding others to relationships, their committments and their use of power [including the power to include or exclude].
I'm not sure that we need tp attribute psychological intent to those that make attempts at 'holding accountable'. Lets just think of new and interesting ways and celebrate the many ways put forth.
In peace and love.
Wow, this has sure been a hot topic Michael. I have been cruising around but still have'nt seen Janine put up a sign next to the perpetrators of the demolition of the Aquatic. Janine says, she was a political candidate once. Politicians of all ilk have reputaions for mishandling the truth. Come on Janine, was it you with the grafitti in the concrete?
Janine,
While you are researching the Legislative proposals introduced into Parliament by the LNP and VOTED DOWN by the LABOR Party, you may be interested to look at these.
Criminal Code (Truth in Parliament) Bill 2008. To repeal legislation brought in by the Labor Government that allowed politicians the “freedom to lie” in Parliament. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 03/12/2008.
Criminal Code (Protecting School Students and Members of Staff from Assaults) Amendment Bill 2007. To ensure that any auscult on students and members of staff on school grounds be dealt with by police. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 12/03/2008
Criminal Code (Assault Against Police and Others) Amendment Bill 2007. Three month jail term for offenders found guilty of assaulting police, prison officers, ambulance officers or firemen in the course of their duty. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 27/02/2008.
Criminal Code and Other Acts (Graffiti Clean Up) Bill 2008. To make community service clean up orders compulsory for all graffiti offenders in addition to any fines imposed by the court. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 13/02/2008.
Criminal Code (Assault Causing Death) Amendment Bill 2007. Introduce a new offence for unlawful assault causing death and to increase the sentencing for crimes committed as accessories after the fact. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 13/02/2008.
Criminal Code (Gate Crashing) Amendment Bill 2007. Introduce a new offence for “gatecrashing” and provide the Police with additional powers to deal with this specific offence. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 13/02/2008.
Criminal Code (Organised Crime Groups) Amendment Bill 2007. Introduce legislation that it is an offence to be a member of an organised criminal group and to give police increased powers.
Voted AGAINST by LABOR 31/10/2007
Civil Liability (Good Samaritan) Amendment Bill 2007. Afford Legal Protection to community members who assist others in emergency situation. Voted AGAINST by LABOR 04/09/2007.
Regards,
Rob Williams j.p.(Qual.)
McCoombe Street
Earlville
Rob,
That's a nice touch omitting the substance of debate on your charge sheet. Did you learn that one at JP kindy class?
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